threaded | unthreaded | newest first

Am I "Straight"?

topic posted Mon, April 14, 2008 - 3:28 PM by 
I attended the closing keynote speech by Patrick Califia this Sunday. In many ways it was a wonderful speech and brought together several of the problem areas we have in the BDSM world, included a call for action and encouragement, etc. Good stuff.

However, in one particular part of the speech Patrick was making some comments about activism and make the comment "Straights are slow" ("stupid" was implied, not snail-like). And then, in a fairly joking way said "no they aren't" while nodding "yes", and then in a softer voice "yes they are", and again, "no they aren't" while nodding yes. He got a laugh from the audience and then moved on.

Now, I'm not insulted. I feel sure that Patrick knows that straight people (and by this I mean heterosexual) are not generally stupid. (I suppose I could be wrong about that assumption), and I hope he believes that average intelligence between glbt and straight people is the same.

I grew up with "Do you know why the Polish navy has no submarines? They build them with screen doors" type of humor. Every group has some other group that it makes fun of. When I was a kid I couldn't have picked a Pole out of a lineup of any other people, so don't ask me why kids in Queens in NY in the late 60's, early 70's New York kids made fun of Polish people. I have no idea, but we did (Now that I think about it, I wonder if it derived from "Meathead"?). If you were a smart Polish person and heard the jokes you couldn't really be insulted because the jokes were so generic.

And yet I was surprised. So, is this what Patrick was doing? Because there clearly *was* a joke being made at the expense of straight people. This is fine, but it did make me stop and think for a moment.

If *I* were giving a keynote to a mixed audience of people where perhaps half of them were Polish, would I have included a Polish joke? Even if we all know and agree that it's a joke with no rancor, etc. Regardless of if it were planned, or spontaneous, etc.

Probably not. So the second question that came to mind is "am I straight?" Am I being included in this group? Or, to put it differently, is the word "Straight" being somehow redefined to mean what I would call variously, "not sexually aware", "sexually uneducated", "not sexually diverse", "not GLBT friendly", etc. or, to use another word to which I ascribe similar meanings: "Vanilla".

Clearly this was a harmless remark and I'm obviously reading too much into it, but this is how subtle meanings of words are changed.

I'm clearly not vanilla, but I do define myself as straight. So, if myself and half the room weren't being lightly insulted, is straight now being partially redefined to vanilla? (At least in Patrick's eye? Actually I assume he's just more used to presenting to GLBT oriented crowds where the occasional swipe at straight people is harmless fun. God knows straight people make enough Gay/Lesbian jokes!)

Thoughts from anybody else who was there? Thoughts in general?

Steve.
posted by:
join to post
  • Todd
    Todd
    offline 143

    Re: Am I "Straight"?

    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 4:23 PM
    Warning: this will be a rant. If you don't like rants, kindly ignore my comments and move on. *s*

    <rant>
    I remember many years ago going through the SFSI volunteer program. This was at a time when the organization (mostly if not all volunteer) was mostly gay/bi folk of either gender. I remember being treated badly by a few of the group's leaders mainly because I was a <gasp> het boy. I didn't think much of it until I heard other het men were also being treated poorly by the organization. To this day I refuse to have anything to do with them because of what happened. I got the sense that because the queer folk were in a majority, they could treat the "minority" (ie we het boys) poorly. As I told one of my people of color friends, "now I know what prejudice feels like."

    Now I wasn't there for Patrick's speech, so I can't comment on what point he was trying to get across. Was it that straights refuse usually to acknowledge the issues queer folk face, or that straights still tend to be rather intolerant of queer folk., or something else? Was he taking a not so subtle "potshot" at the straight SM community in that they tend to look down on "the queer SM folk?" Again since I wasn't there, I don't know. My fiancee and I were in Daly City helping her daughter look at new cars. That can be an exercise in nonconsensual masochism if you don't know how to deal with high pressure salespeople. :)

    I'm engaged to a woman who has queer kids. I've been active in this community for something like 18 years now. I like to think of myself as being tolerant of other preferences. Hey I'd better be if two of my future step-kids happen to be transgender!

    I guess I'm glad I wasn't there for Patrick's remarks. I probably would have taken exception to them and left. I pride myself on trying to NOT be a typical straight person. I try hard NOT to be intolerant. I don't always succeed but I try. Unfortunately a lot of straights aren't like me. I find it ironic when I hear stories about how kinky straight folk at play parties get uptight if they see a cpl men scening. My thought is "if it bothers you so much, then don't watch them play!" And I also find it ironic that in a marginalized community, some of us still find the need to look down at others who don't fit our image of what a kinky person "should be." </rant>
    join to post
    • Paul
      Paul
      offline 112

      Re: Am I "Straight"?

      Thu, April 17, 2008 - 5:34 PM
      SFSI's executive director for the last 4 years was a het man (he recently resigned because he's got two young kids).

      I was weirded out too, felt like I was in the minority, but not the case.
      join to post
  • West...
    West, Mike
    offline 233

    Re: Am I "Straight"?

    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 5:47 PM
    Don't worry Steve, you're still straight as long as you don't kiss 'em on the mouth!
    join to post

    • Re: Am I "Straight"?

      Mon, April 14, 2008 - 5:52 PM
      I remember back in the 70s, in Berkeley, a bisexual woman friend of mine was turned down for a job at the Berkeley Women's Health Collective because she wasn't a Lesbian.
      I mean, who is more qualified to give birth control and birthing assistance than women who don't need it?
      I may be hetero but since I'm a pothead I can't be Straight!
      join to post

  • Re: Am I "Straight"?

    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 8:21 PM
    In my experience over the past few years, particularly since the proliferation of pansexual folks in the scene in the early/mid-nineties, a differentiation has arisen in the language I've heard many folks use--many gay/lesbian folks included--between "het" and "straight." I was at Patrick's closing keynote speech yesterday as well, and that differentiation was completely transparent to my understanding--i.e., I just presumed that he was referring to heterosexual, uptight folks when he said "straight."

    Steve, you may be het (yay for we het/bi wimmens!), but I would never in a million years characterize you as straight.
    join to post

    • Re: Am I "Straight"?

      Mon, April 14, 2008 - 9:06 PM

      Right, it's those additional words: "Straight" = "heterosexual uptight folks" vs. "Straight" = "heterosexual"

      I'm fine with being a the latter, but would not count myself as the former. (which this posting might seem to belie! :-) )

      Steve.
      join to post
    • robintv
      robintv
      online 52

      Re: Am I "Straight"?

      Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:37 AM
      sounds like "them and us", exclusionary remarks, where the "us " people are usually "better" then "them" people in some way.
      I try to be very inclusionary so I may be open to a greater number of people amoung which I may find a great deal of pleasure.
      whatever you call me or you, if we give each other pleasure its all good.
      as always, pervon folks,
      robin
      join to post

  • Re: Am I "Straight"?

    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 9:07 PM
    Reads almost like it's ok to be un-PC unless you're a het white dude. Then you'll get ripped, shredded, sued and sentenced to "sensitivity seminars" ....
    join to post
  • Aglaia
    Aglaia
    offline 46

    Re: Am I "Straight"?

    Mon, April 14, 2008 - 11:58 PM
    as a Femme-IDed dyke, i too felt a little uncomfortable with that particular remark because of the myriad ways it could be interpreted. i'm sorry it made you wonder if you were part of the "ridiculed party", for lack of a better term; i wouldn't want anyone to feel that way.

    i wonder if part of what Patrick said might have been borne of a lack of gender- and sexual orientation-based variety in the addresses given over the weekend. A "straight" friend of mine said this morning that even she "noticed a lot of unintentional exclusion of trans folk" over the course of the conference. so perhaps Patrick's address came from a place of irritation, frustration, or downright anger around that perception of the weekend - i don't know. i also don't remember the exact context of the "straights are slow" bit, though i do remember thinking, "a lot of my friends, colleagues, and contacts in the community are 'straight' and i'd never think that of them, let alone say that about them to some 300 members of our community."

    i do feel that nearly anything that makes one person laugh and another person feel bad about him or herself is a detriment to our ability to come together and follow through with the activist activities with which we were charged by the very same speaker. for that reason, i'd like to offer my sincere apology for any negativity you felt as a result of the closing remarks this weekend.
    join to post
    • Angela
      Angela
      offline 150

      Re: Am I "Straight"?

      Tue, April 15, 2008 - 1:38 AM
      "even she "noticed a lot of unintentional exclusion of trans folk" over the course of the conference"

      As one of the Advisory Board who was reviewing presentation proposals, I can say that any exclusion of trans folk did not come from the LOC. Diversity and inclusiveness were emphasized as measures we were asked to use when rating the proposals, and I know there were several workshops offered that were on very specific transgender/genderqueer/genderfuck topics or that focused on diversity issues which included transfolk as a group who often feels marginalized. But I also understand what your friend meant, because there were a couple of moments when things that were said really brought it home to me how exclusionary speech habits can be.

      I remember at one point during Race Bannon's opening keynote speech on Friday night, he started making a determined effort to alter his manner of discussing gender after someone from the audience called out "and trans" when he had mentioned something about "men and women". I also heard the same binary assumption reflected in some of the things Michael Thorn said Saturday. So, I think you're right -- there is an exclusionary affect from speech patterns that, while perhaps unintentional, IS "thought - less" -- that is, it's a learned speech habit people aren't even consciously aware of enough to make an effort to change.
      join to post
      • Domi...
        Domina Lilith
        offline 215

        Re: Am I "Straight"?

        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 6:27 AM
        One of the worst evenings of my life was doing a class for Screw Up and not being able to break my habit of seeing people as "male and female."

        I felt like I was insulting someone every time I opened my mouth. I've worked very hard on that since, but it's still difficult. For instance, I was bought at a charity auction a few months back by an adorable person (who actually purrs!!!) who informed me that sie was "a blonde prom queen in a little, hairy jewish boy body." What total fun! But a little confusing for me to deal with pronoun wise. It IS hard to try to catch yourself when you're used to male/female and then you realize that there are now male/female/neuter/trans/other/... and you can't always catch your pronoun errors in time.

        I'm hoping that the next generation won't have the problems we have with this. And I'm hoping that those, like me, who are confused by it, do make a sincere effort to be understanding and inclusive.

        Domina
        join to post

        • Re: Am I "Straight"?

          Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:12 AM
          It takes Time for Language to evolve. I predict that by the time the current generation of kids is our age many of those inter-gender pronouns will have become standard in the language, and rope assisted art will be mainstreamed, polyamorous marriages will be socially acceptible and of course the people on the fringes will be perseuted for behavior that is Different, whatever it may happen to be. And by the next generation gender will probably become so fluid you can change it around by choice,or customise to suit.
          I remember seeing the very first Gay Freedom Day (way before "Pride") in New York City. There were about 20 boys, holding hands, walking down the street carrying signs and chanting for equality. That was about one generation ago....
          join to post
        • heid...
          heidi ho!
          offline 112

          Re: Am I "Straight"?

          Tue, April 15, 2008 - 12:01 PM
          Speaking as a queer and genderqueer person who has a lot of "straight" friends, I think I'm generally cool as long as said straight friends make an effort to be cool...ie: use the right pronouns for me (she) and my friends and be open to the possibility that there are people who identify as identities they're not familiar with. That's just me though. There are definitely people out there who are more rigid with their acceptance of "straight" people and that's a shame. There are so many things ingrained in our society that help drive people apart that we don't need that kind of intolerance.

          People need to bring it up more when they have questions like "is this person a "he", "she", or some other thing?" or "how do you know when someone's queer?" 'cause I bet there are many people who constantly have those questions swirling around but who aren't asking them because they're afraid of sounding rude. Sincerely wanting to broaden one's perspective is not rude. standing on the side and staring 'cause you're afraid to ask is.
          join to post

          • Re: Am I "Straight"?

            Tue, April 15, 2008 - 12:58 PM
            This has become very complicated.
            I think I'll just remaim open minded and accepting. It's more fun that way!
            join to post
            • heid...
              heidi ho!
              offline 112

              Re: Am I "Straight"?

              Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:05 PM
              I think there's also an important difference between being conscious and open-minded and being PC. To me, the former is awesome, the latter not so much.

              Being conscious and accepting implies a sincere desire to know people, places, and things around you and me that are different from us, whereas being PC to me merely means saying and doing the right things so as to not get into trouble or not offend anyone. I frankly think that "PC-ness" is not only pointless, it undermines those who actually want to broaden their world view and to be more accepting.

              Just thought I'd throw in an extra two cents. Topics like these get me going.
              join to post
      • Aglaia
        Aglaia
        offline 46

        Re: Am I "Straight"?

        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:27 AM
        Angela, thank you for that clarification; yes, it boiled down, I think, more to the individuals who are unaccustomed to addressing such a "mixed bag", who perhaps don't think of their language as exclusionary unless or until it is pointed out. I did notice the topics about and relating to trans/gender, and was glad to run into a friend who was speaking on one of those panels :)

        On a related topic, while most folks who are aware of the limitations of language make a concerted effort to use terms that encompass us all, there are those times when it really detracts from the point that the speaker/writer wants to make. If I'm trying to say anything that requires the use of pronouns more than once in a single sentence, and if I don't want to use the grammatically incorrect "singular they", then the sentence becomes a cacophony of "his/hys/her/hyr/hir/+"es. Most people's eyes and brains are not yet trained to immediately translate that chunk of pronouns into the one preferred by the individual to whom it applies in the reader's mind. People's thoughts are generally jarred to a halt when they come up against a substitute for a word that was likely one of the first they learned in life, so that even choosing a single gender-neutral pronoun doesn't work at this time. Male- and female-identified people who only know it as something used by transfolk will then feel like the speech, bit of writing, etc., is biased towards those who choose those pronouns. Those who aren't familiar with gender-neutral pronouns at all will either be stumped or will maybe get some of the meaning from context but not the full intent behind their use.
        join to post
  • Grizzly
    Grizzly
    online 72

    Re: Am I "Straight"?

    Tue, April 15, 2008 - 9:45 AM
    I wonder how much is just evolving language.

    Personally, as someone who writes occasionally and makes use of dictionaries, I hate evolution of what in my mind seems static language and dependable definitions of words. But language is anything but static. F'instance, being gay no longer is always understood as an overabundance of joyfulness, and you rarely carry your Mac to work just because you think it's going to rain...

    I remember being surprised about a year ago to be invited to an event that was specifically a "queer" event. I expressed the concern that as someone self-identifying as essentially heterosexual, I might not be accepted as a good fit. I was told, to the contrary, the fact that I was a part of a BDSM community was in itself proof that I was queer. Clearly a shift in language. I wonder if using the word "straight" in a similar context wouldn't be the flip side of the same coin. If "queer" was being used for what I used to say "sex positive community" for, maybe "straight" was intended for those involved in no sex positive community?
    join to post
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Am I "Straight"?

      Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:24 AM
      For a community that supposedly strives to be inclusive, it would seem that while we bash those that would attempt to label us we seem to feel pretty comfortable in labeling others.

      Unless something has changed that I am unaware of, there are only TWO SEXES to choose from, so what is so un PC with male/male identified female/female identified and male-female/ identified?

      Now then of course there are those into canine play but what about equine, bovine feline play...er...trans speciel persons/non person play?

      Oh man...I thought I had this nailed down when I started this post but what about those that identify themselves as Faerie. I think that Faeries come in male and female..er male/identified female/identified male-female/identified, but what of those that identify as imps/elves/brownies/Troll/Sidhe (Seelie and unSeelie)???

      Oh how I long for the days when we were all just kinky deviants. Now THAT is a label I can embrace!
      join to post
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Am I "Straight"?

        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:54 AM
        dating transfolks makes it much more complex than m/m, f/f and m/f. Even with transfolks who really identify purely as male or female, their lives, their pasts, their experiences make them a little more complex than something as simple as male or female. And that doesn't include folks who are born in between (and yes it happens more than you'd think). Some of these may be edge cases, and if you choose not to date transfolks than I can understand that you might see things in more black and white lines. But for many folks it's not so cut and dry and that can be a good thing and a hot thing. :)
        join to post
        • Thomas
          Thomas
          offline 19

          Re: Am I "Straight"?

          Tue, April 15, 2008 - 5:23 PM
          I think we are missing a fundamental point in this post. This should not be about how "we" define "others". It is allowing the space and comfort level for someone to define themselves.

          I get beaten by and fuck men. Twenty years ago I identified as a bisexual man. The label was considered deviant at that time. In Northampton MA, a location where many lesbians live, they would not let bisexuals march in the pride parade. We were called fence sitters by the queer community.Bisexuals were also accused of transferring AIDS from homosexuals to heterosexuals. Any group of people can be exclusionary. Now I identify myself as rough trade. It forces people to ask questions rather than place neat labels that block out dialog between people.

          Did anyone ask what straight meant to Patrick? I've met him while he spoke in Columbus. I have a hunch he considers BDSM part of a transgressive sexual behavior. Perhaps we need more constructive confrontation in our community, rather than avoiding issues that might make us uncomfortable.
          join to post

          • Re: Am I "Straight"?

            Tue, April 15, 2008 - 5:51 PM

            I agree... we are off the topic I had originally tried to address. :-)

            No, I didn't get the chance to ask Patrick, and I'm pretty sure that if I had he would have said something "oh, I didn't mean *you*", or something to that effect. That's why I wasn't insulted, and didn't feel excluded as others have expressed.

            I was really just wondering about the definitions. To me straight = heterosexual. To others, straight might mean something like sexually uninformed. As Grizzly asks, am I now "queer" because I'm sex-aware? That would be a surprise to me because to me queer means gay/lesbian.

            Language is a wonderful thing. It changes and morphs over time, but it's good to be aware of it.

            Steve. (Who still asks "may I have a" instead of "can I get a".)
            join to post
            • Thomas
              Thomas
              offline 19

              Re: Am I "Straight"?

              Tue, April 15, 2008 - 6:48 PM
              For me the hetro/homo is a description of sexual behavior. Straight vs GBLT ect. is a culture and it's reflective values. Yes, you can be in a hetrosexual relationship and have a set of values that aren't "straight". Straight is more of an exclusionary term. If that make you feel "queer" than welcome aboard. If I convert you I get an all expenses paid cruise to the Virgin Islands.
              join to post
            • heid...
              heidi ho!
              offline 112

              Re: Am I "Straight"?

              Tue, April 15, 2008 - 8:31 PM
              For me "straight" has always been kind of a funny word. 'cause while to many, "straight" primarily means heterosexual, there are many who use the word "straight" to mean normal, not messed with, or alright ( ie: "I like to have just straight vodka", "are we straight now?", "that's okay. I'm straight"...etc), which sort of implies "not straight" as being not okay, messed with, or not alright....but that again is something else.

              "Queer" as I've seen it has at times been used to mean different things, but generally it's been used to describe people or things that are out of the accepted norm. So put in that context, I would say that anyone who's in this community (yes, you included Steve) could be described as "queer". Of course as with all labels, it all depends on whether or not you wanna claim it. Queer was and still is mostly used to describe the lgbtqi communities, but that's still largely due to the aforementioned "out of the accepted norm" definition.
              join to post
      • Domi...
        Domina Lilith
        offline 215

        Re: Am I "Straight"?

        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 6:48 PM
        Eve, some people identify as both genders, some identify as being of no gender and some as gender fluid. So there are those, and of course trans, and undoubtedly countless permutations of gender. So no, it's no longer limited to just male and female.

        Domina
        join to post
      • Meryl
        Meryl
        offline 13

        Re: Am I "Straight"?

        Tue, April 15, 2008 - 9:28 PM
        "Unless something has changed that I am unaware of, there are only TWO SEXES to choose from, so what is so un PC with male/male identified female/female identified and male-female/ identified?"

        Actually, a lot has changed. Folks might check out biologist Anne Fausto-Sterling's "The Five Sexes, Revisited"-- www.neiu.edu/~lsfuller/5...visit